Subscribe for more Revenue Realness.
Coaching episode alert! On today’s installment of RRH, Kellen Casebeer schools me on my outbound email game. Together we cover questions like what does personalized relevance mean? Why you should not assume people want to be ...
Coaching episode alert! On today’s installment of RRH, Kellen Casebeer schools me on my outbound email game. Together we cover questions like what does personalized relevance mean? Why you should not assume people want to be good at their job. This one is as actionable as they get, friends!
Topics Discussed:
Resources Mentioned:
For more Guest:
For more Amy:
Amy:
What's up human. Welcome to the revenue real hotline. I'm Amy UFF check more importantly. I'm excited. You decided to join us today. I know you've got a ton of options and I appreciate you. This is a show about all the hard and uncomfortable conversations that arise while generating revenue and how to think or rethink what you're doing, why you're doing it. And then of course, How to execute differently. And like I said, I'm happy you decided to come along for the ride. Don't forget to follow the show wherever you listen. So you can be notified each time a new episode drops. And do me a favor friend. Don't tell anybody about the show. Let's keep it our little secret. I'm Amy UFF check. This is the revenue real hotline. Enjoy ke case beer. Welcome to the revenue real hotline, sir.
Kellen:
I'm excited. Absolutely me as. Well, before
Amy:
we dive right in to all the fabulousness, that is gonna be this very new and first type of episode. Why don't you share with the listeners a little bit about who you. And what you do every day. And then we'll like I said, dive right
Kellen:
in. Yeah, absolutely. Good question. Um, what do I do every day, man? That's like, I know it's like a rough moment. yeah. So right now is actually like an interesting time because I'm actually in the process of potentially joining a company. And so right now I'm only doing stuff on my own, which is really fun. And so I run a slack group that I call the speakeasy, which is named after my. After a nickname for my jujitsu gym and the way that we operated over the last two and a half years or so. And so it's kind of my idea of like the training room, right? Yeah. And so it's this room that I run for reps where it's basically like very focused on experimentation. Right. And like community learning and engagement. And what's cool is like it's away from their managers. It's away from LinkedIn. Right. And so it's like kind outta the public. So we kind of just do sales development stuff. Right? Love I background. I come from actually a trades background. I ran my own home automation company through college. Okay. Then I went into like enterprise cybersecurity sales. I did full cycle AE for a couple years. I did head of sales for an early stage startup. Um, and now I'm looking into some kind of more like managerial coaching focused roles, cuz I've kind of found this, this little space that I'm having a lot of fun with, which is like helping others be awesome at selling. I'm
Amy:
excited for this episode, but you're also talking to someone that pivoted into sales enablement for this exact reason. It's it's my, my heart and joy. Listeners ke was the chief of staff over at Leon, um, which is a insanely incredible predictive platform for sales leaders to. Get in front of the team's burnout, right. Tracking mental health, but not just from a, like, let's, let's cover our ass, but also to better understand when to push harder on the performance. Anyway, Leon is awesome. And now I think there's 240 sales teams, onboarded. I think something like 2.4 million data points gathered in the past a couple years. And ke was a massive part of that. And they're now giving the platform advice. Yeah. So anyway, ke I'm glad I caught you in this little window so that we could play. All right, listeners, we're gonna play a new game today. Um, ke is actually going to be coaching me on some of my email outbound work. For anybody that doesn't know this already, I am have launched a service on helping sales leaders to, to actually launch their first internal sales enablement podcast so that we can, you know, untether learning from sitting at the desk and whatever there's, I'll spare you the benefits. Everything that we cover, um, is gonna be in the show notes too. If anybody wants to look at the, the material ke ke was given my email. Template that I threw together and started using last week. Very new. And so ke why don't you walk us through, you know, what you see or what you saw when you first, or should I, maybe I should read the email to, yeah. Okay listeners, this is the email subject line. Cool idea. Exclamation point. Hello blank. You're reading this email because blank company has an incredible track record with learning development, parenthesis, refu. The company already leverages an external podcast and you're new head of product marketing is a friend who absolutely rocks. And there is a quote of who that person is. I'm Amy. Great to E meet you for context. I sold enterprise deck tech for a decade. Built out two sales enablement departments. I launched a podcast community at sales cast with 60 shows launched and 45 shows under management. And I also host my own, not sure if this is for you, but I'm looking for forward thinking sales leaders eager to build internal podcasting into the teams, sales enablement strategy. AEG do more with Latin. These are bullets. Do more with less drive, richer connection, attention and engagement across the sales team, untether learning from sitting at the computer, et cetera. I'm curious. Would you be open to this conversation? Question mark, worst case scenario, you absolutely learned something new and make a new friend. Let me know you Rocky. Either way. Keep up with the great work. Thank you. Best Amy PS. You are absolutely invited to record on my show to. Say the word and then the sequence, just so everybody knows there was a follow up LinkedIn DM that was going out right after this email high blank. I just wanted to put a face to the email I sent over. It's always my goal to connect with inspiring sales leaders, such as yourself. And out of, I, I don't know. I was just toying with it last week. I think I sent this out seven times and we've got zero opens and zero responses. Okay. And with that, yeah, I she'd take us.
Kellen:
To start, I'll give broadly my like lens on email itself. When I'm writing email, the way I look at it is I'm, I'm not selling, I'm not running discovery. All I'm really trying to do is get into a meeting, right? Sometimes you're in an environment where you want to qualify that more. Right. And so you might be in an environment where you're like, dude, we can't meet with everyone all the time, so we need to make sure these emails are very specific and targeted so that we only resonate with people who have very specific problems. Sometimes though you might want to just be dabbing a little intrigued on someone about an idea. Because really you don't want that specificity. Right? Like this term I use, especially lately, it's been like specificity stifles creativity. Okay. Right. If I lay out a very, very, very specific problem and a very, very, very specific way of SL solving that problem. There's effectively, like one way that those two things connect. Right. But if I lay out like a broad thematic problem, let's say, and then some broad thematic approaches to solving that there's actually like infinite ways that those two ideas connect. Right. And so the way I look at things is like, what is the likelihood that my prospect has a perfect problem, that my perfect solution and that I see that so clearly that I can just link those together through a cold email. In my opinion, it's kind of low, right? Like I've been taught not to sell before I run some discovery. And so I make some low assumptions about like where they might be. But really what I'm trying to overall land with this person is I see some stuff about you. That's interesting. I have some ideas that are interesting and I think you, and I should talk about them to see if this like smoke. I see really is fire. And so a little bit more tactically, the way I tend to do my emails, like short subject line, very like will Allred, lavender inspired mm-hmm yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amy:
They're doing the Lord's work friend.
Kellen:
Yes, absolutely. And, I'm very informal. Right? Hi person saw blank thing about you. Then I'll insert either like a question or a problem statement. People like that tend to blah, blah. Then I'll do some solution type thing. Basically if these two things previously hit, like here's an idea for you. And then just like a soft close for interest. Right. Super. I want low touch. I want it to be friendly. I want it to like, look like a text message. Okay. I love
Amy:
it. Yeah.
Kellen:
So the way I describe it is like I open with personalized relevance. So it'll be like, hi, Amy noticed blank is like ke 1 0 1. Right? Or even just Amy dash noticed XYZ because I wanna shorten this so that the preview text in the preview window on email. If I say like, hi Amy, I was listening to that's what they're gonna see if I make it. Amy saw you all of a sudden in this preview text, it's speaking to Amy, right? It's not saying ke, it's not going hi. I'm ke I blah, blah. Like that email. Nah. But the one that's like ke saw you, blah, blah, blah. It's like, oh, okay. This is like, that's good. Yeah.
Amy:
It's like above the fold, right? That's okay. That's brilliant.
Kellen:
I wanted to speak right off the bat and I want the first line as quickly as possible to have something that resonates, right? You know, copywriting 1 0 1 is like, don't assume they're gonna read even your next sentence is then 1 0 1. I
Amy:
think, I feel like that should be 3 0 1. Yeah's I dunno,
Kellen:
actually. That's that's a good point. I, I haven't taken any of the. Oh, okay, good, good, good. I'm actually more of like an artist than the engineering side of,
Amy:
I will. There's an art in a science to everything friend. Yeah. And as far where I come from, you gotta learn the science first so that you can actually create art of any value. Yeah. But clearly you do know the science of this. All right. But continue. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And so, so the first line has to be something we don't assume that they read
Kellen:
it and, and I like personalized relevance. Like I think it's just the perfect, like what is a recent thing? Ideally proves, like, I actually know this, right? So if someone said like, Hey Kell, you know, saw you sales and blah, blah, blah. It's like, whoa, that could be pulled from like a pretty generalized list. Where's like, Hey, Hey, ke saw you like recently left a company to pursue doing this thing full time on your own. What else? Yeah. Can be more examples. Um, yeah. So in that first sentence, if I'm using LinkedIn for my personalization, I like to look for that person's favorite thing about themself that no one ever talks about. Right. And so for me, I love jujitsu. It's no secret. I talk about it quite a bit, but like when people reference jujitsu and messages to me, like I get stoked. I like, I get excited about it. It's cool to me. How do you find that? So I look for subtleties. Um, so what I look for is like on someone's LinkedIn page, they had to take effort. Why don't
Amy:
you look at mine? Let's go look at my LinkedIn page. Let's do this. Oh my gosh, listeners. Here we go. I thought we were just gonna get like an, an email coaching session, but now we're getting. A masterclass, probably a PhD level, a oh, not quite PhD. Prospect to research. Oh, come on. I know what's up. This is good. Yeah. Let's pretend we're writing this email to me. My listeners, we got, we searched ke hits the name. He got the spelling of the last name, right? That was that's step
Kellen:
one. So basically, when someone puts something on their. they had to expel effort to make that happen. Having it, there was better than not for this person. Right. And so when I go to someone, I'm going to always assume like, most people probably reference this with you. Maybe they reference this with you. I like to just go like all the way to the LA like, honestly, where'd you start? Like, what'd you, you know, who are you? Right. So you can come down. Like there we go. So I don't even know it
Amy:
from Z. They gave me this to sale listeners. It's head of Jersey shore pucker promotions. This is a Jim beam company. I was in charge of overseeing all of these like live events. I sold alcohol. Right. That was what was happening. And they hired me on my 21st birthday. They gave me a house on the Jersey shore. I honestly don't know what they were
Kellen:
thinking.
Amy:
Also after the first one, it was, I'll never forget. It was Seattle city and the guy that owned the bar came up to me the following week. Right. Cause I was down there every week, but after the first one I did there, he came and found me week two and was like, how long have you been doing this? And I was like, well, you were, this is my first week. Well now we're in my second. He's like I've owned this bar for 20 years. No one has ever sold more alcohol at an event that they hosted than you did last week. Supposedly there were multi pile colors of vomit, like all the next day, like oh, okay.
Kellen:
But anyway, so actually you just proved my point though, so well, which is. When I first got on your page, I went, most people probably say stuff about your first thing and you, and you probably not. I don't even think you say anything. You probably noded. And then I said something about this and you're like, hold on, hold on. And you immediately, like, you're you lit up, you lit up, you had a story. It resonated deeply. Right? I got all this information, right? That's what I want to do to a prospect. I want to bring up their thing that no one ever brings up that they love. So that when ke. Tell me. So you got hired on your 21st birthday to sell alcohol, your, like your, your headlights up dope means going crazy. Nostalgist hitting on all cylinders and you're like, let me tell you this story. And, and it takes up the first 10 minutes of the call. It has nothing to do with what we're sitting there talking about. And at the end of that, you're like, whew, sorry. And, and you begin your call and like, people love you. Right. It's just great. And so that, that was like the perfect example.
Amy:
Okay, good. So I shouldn't like beat myself up for interrupting you. Okay. That was awesome. Let, so let's do one more. Let's is there one other thing that you would notice just for somebody that's do we do Andy?
Kellen:
Like we could, yeah, let's do Andy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So what I tell people, like one of my phrases is don't assume people, uh, care that much about being good at their job. Which sounds awful. But like my point there is that a lot of people might disagree with this. But to me, we are so much more than just like what our job is that like, I have to believe that the thing that Andy gets the most excited about isn't a KPI. It's not like a check number. His might actually be in the world of work because he's so like mission driven around it. He might, for example, like what I know about Andy without even looking is, uh, his like authorship mentorship group. Yeah. So for Andy, it's like a lot of people might, oh, I saw your book. I read your, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah. Like he does that. That's his life. It's cool. You know, he appreciates that. But if you were like, Andy, The way you help young authors get into publishing who would never otherwise have access to that. All of a sudden he's like, oh, I like, I love you. Like, who are you?
Amy:
That's his, yeah. That's his dream. Listeners. Andy does these top secret, um, aspiring author masterminds for free he hand pits. People puts in cohorts of six. It's a six month program. I was actually in the second one. The first one, Meg mishk Leslie EZ, Travis king, Brandon flu, Hardy Jason bay. Like you would not believe the underground people that he helps. And he tells the story that he does this because, you know, one day he was looking at all those sales books on the shelves. And like 99% of them were written by old white men. And instead of just taking that observation and filing it away, he's like, what, what can I do about that? Um, and so he did. But how would you have known that from looking at his profile?
Kellen:
Yeah. You know, the truth is like, I don't think I would've. Yeah. And so I'm trying to find what I would've done otherwise. Yeah. One that kind of like stands out and this is very like, Kelly is like, I saw he won a bronze medal and so like, people love to be like, oh, I saw you were the best at whatever I might poke fun it. Third bronze
Amy:
bed list, tops, pron, top sales and marketing book of 2011.
Kellen:
This is gonna get like meta, but humans are wire for survival, not flourishing, right? So you know how negative things affect us more than positive ones. Mm-hmm. Negative. Emotions are like generally tied to like threat perception, right. And we're just wired to survive. So if we perceive threats or if we are harmed or there's threat detection that resonates more strongly than positive. Someone who is the best at anything put in so much work ahead of time, very unsexy work that by the time they win, it's it's almost like it's inevitability. So, if you think about like being the best, that person probably has the identity being the best before that result even says. So, you know what those people probably remember though? Losing to two people, they had the identity as the best and they lost. He's a bronze medalist, bronze. So I might be like, Andy. Third best sales and marketing book of 2011. I gotta believe as cool as that is. It's stung to lose out to two people and maybe that's like my entrance. Right. And if I was gonna plant like a marketing, this podcasting, I might might have said like, Must have UNG loose those two people. I'm sure at the end of that, you walked away with some lessons about how you could get back to the top where you belonged. Mm-hmm If you had an internal podcast to tell to 500 sales people, what might you be telling them on a monthly basis to make sure that your org is never number three? Something like that. Right. Like, I don't know.
Amy:
Gotcha. No, I'm following. I'm following. I like this. I like this so much. And even the, what you said, I wanna repeat back for the listeners that everything that's on, somebody's LinkedIn profile is there intentionally, that's such an interesting thought. All right. So let's dig into the, I'm a little sad, maybe ke we'll have you back on the show, but to cover, um, how to do this type of deep research when somebody's LinkedIn profile is not as expanded. It's actually something that I I've been thinking a lot about, but yeah, let's get into, not that I'm eager to see like my new emails or whatever, but let's see what you
Kellen:
got. So I wrote two, I wrote a longer one and a shorter one and, uh, basically the longer one is if we, we know they have a podcast. And then the shorter ones without it. Okay. So
Amy:
listeners, one of the things that I'm looking for, one of my criteria is whether or not the company is using an external podcast already to drive obviously brand, um, awareness. And so that it suggests right. That, that the organization would be more open to using the podcast internally. Okay. But Walkley let's do one at a time.
Kellen:
Yeah, I'll do so I'll do the simpler one first, because I think that, um, I think that's like, it's the foundation, right? Well, actually, hold on. I'm gonna back up. So the first thing is I I'm gonna give some credit to, uh, VP of sales of Saster Brian Esser here, because okay. I had the privilege one time of like sitting down with him and watching him write coldly email and something I learned in that session, that's just like totally changed the way I do it is like he sits there. He, he writes out an email in full one pass, like wordy, like whatever. Right. Because what he's doing is he's like, I'm gonna get my ideas onto the paper. And then he just like reduces, reduces, reduces, reduces. And so even though I'm gonna start with the shorter one, just to be clear, I just took the longer one and just made it less. Right. For this, I mean the subject just sales enablement, and it's because we're looking at, uh, enabling sales with the podcast. Yep. And, uh, I do all lowercase and it's because most marketing software is selling, sending things in uppercase. And so I just always send my subject lines, lowercase. I've heard it can be better. I I'm sure some people disagree. I don't really know. It's just how it it's a very gen Z thing to do too. Yeah. So it's like, Hey, name dash noticed organizations, companies, right? So we have like sprout social noticed sprout social's track record with learning development on rep views, top tier, right? Because we know that this is from this rep view list of great learning development organizations. Ever consider an internal podcast to reinforce those trainings asynchronously? And so we're asking him a question here. And what I know is like, there probably have not talked about reinforcing asynchronous trainings, right? Like that. Really I'm asking, have you ever considered this, but really I'm just trying to like plant this idea. And
Amy:
reinforcing is it's trending right now. Um, retention, in fact, Maria bro, and I are talking about what, what we're gonna submit for the, what is it? The sales enablement society conference. So she wants to do a talk. So she wants to talk about retention. So I was like, I can't believe that you just, that you're starting with this. Like what are the damn chances Cal continue?
Kellen:
So it's also part of it is it's a multipl. If I wanna plant a new, like, people don't want new ideas. No one wants to do something new. Right. But if I go, you are putting resources into this, doing this, and I can pick it a little bit better. Right. I'm not asking you to change it. I'm actually just like, Hey, do you want this? Just
Amy:
like, it's a step up. And it's the, the perceived lift is less. It's pretty fucking brilliant. Yeah. Okay. Can continue. Keep reading, keep reading. Yeah. So
Kellen:
Ever consider an internal podcast to reinforce those trainings. Asynchronous. When a team is free to listen whenever and wherever without screens, it expands on how you reach your number one growth lever. Sound like something you'd be open to a conversation about? Toxin ke yes. Also happy to discuss on my own podcast. If that's more your flavor. And so I don't actually normally do P but I liked that you had the little, oh yeah.
Amy:
I like, I love doing the PS. That's been a go to, that's worked for me very well. French. I'm glad you put it in
Kellen:
because it's a deposit, right? Like Josh, Brown's really big on deposits withdrawals. And like, it does two things. One, I like that. It's a deposit going, I'm willing to let you come on my shelf, but actually what I like more is that like, it's a little challenging. And it's very confident because it's like, I'm so confident in my idea. I'll let you come onto my podcast to talk about my idea. Right. And so it's like to have faith in your idea, like most AE wouldn't publish their gone calls on LinkedIn
Amy:
are they're terrible draft emails that didn't work at all. Let's talk about those
Kellen:
a hundred percent. And that's what I mean. I just think, you know, there's some confident energy behind, and so that's the basic one it's it's tying in this idea that like you do trainings right now. Are you open to reinforcing. The way you do that is unlocking new listening hours by engaging with your employees at different times. And like, Amy, you and I talked about when we talked the other day, like, you know, that's, where do you listen to your podcast? It's like driving, it's at the gym. It's doing laundry. It's like before bed. Right. And so most of these trainings are obviously jump in front of a zoom for 45 minutes and learn how use SalesLoft. It's like, what if you had your executives or whatever with this like exciting fun. High energy, you know, bring in your top reps. Having in guest talkers, like whatever the hell it is.
Amy:
Yeah. Bringing your buyers and have like conversations with buyers. What did you buy, buy? What has the implementation been like? What are the pain? Wait, what do you wish you knew while you were buying? You know, like all that kind of shit and
Kellen:
it's stuff that sales people actually want to know. They're oftentimes pretty disconnected from, or only connected. Like if I'm a rep and let's say I'm selling, let's just say like, my deal of velocity is like a deal of month. That's 12 deals a year that I get to like learn from what if you had a 10 person sales team and I could learn all of the wins, right? 10 X, the learnings of closed one fuels. Yeah, it scales it scales. It's there forever. You can pull it up three years later when you and the onboarding
Amy:
put it into the onboarding. Like, and what I love about the podcast, it is a fraction of the cost of video production too. Um, or any of the, if you're doing live events, obviously the travel budget is insane.
Kellen:
Yeah. And I call it number one growth lever here, because again, like, I think to me, this is a typical sale of like, if these people perceive me as a growth lever, you unlock a lot of budget. If you're perceived as like a nice to have cost center that maybe a company doing well can have like. You're gonna get worse margin on your deals that you win. You're gonna lose more deals, like all of that stuff. And so I want to be tying like, you're, you're spending money here. So that's loss aver, like, uh, what is it? Sunk cost fallacy, right. Like, right, right, right.
Amy:
Have sunk costs already good money after bad. Yeah.
Kellen:
Right. So it's like, you're, you're throwing money at this already. Like we can do this other thing and it's linked to growth. And so in theory, it's. You invest to get growth. I'm talking about helping your investment to get more growth, you know, why are you gonna say no to that? In theory. So that's the short one. No, we can do a little bit longer. One what's really different about mine and yours is like, this talks literally nothing about, uh, what you're bringing to the table. Right. And you do have a lot that you bring to the table that can be referenced. Right. And so what it's missing could be something, you know, this, this sentence about like when a team is free to listen, like it, it could be more powerful if it said like our three most on recently onboarded clients saw blah, blah, blah result. Right? Like if that, if that existed, I'd use that's
Amy:
with it. Doesn't this is a brand new concept of no one is doing it right now. There's no social proof yet. So it's just the external shows that
Kellen:
I've worked on. And it's like, when I sold at Leon. We weren't even a product, right? Yeah. You were a first mover for sure. And I get it and, and the thing is, it's true. It's like, this is this cool idea. Like you said, you're looking for innovative leaders. It's a certain type of person. And, and the other thing is copy this simple, welcomes a response because it's a little bit conversational. And so you're, I, I guess that like with a new offering, part of it is like, I'm trying to land this new offer, but it's also like also, I just know I'm gonna learn a lot from hearing back from the people that I think this would be a good fit for about like what they think. So it's better to have email that welcomes even a no just conversation.
Amy:
That's why I had the line in there. This was it's dated though. Like this email, this format is what I used 2015. Yeah. Was that when, nice stop carrying a bag like that. It's a little dated and it's, it is like riding a bike in some ways, but shit changes. Like sales is always changing. Okay.
Kellen:
Well, what I'll say about that though, this is what's funny is I read it and I went like, yeah, like there's best practices. It doesn't follow. There's a story there. There's interesting information there. So one thing I'd say is like, and this is a belief of mine that I hold strongly is like, I don't believe that without results, anyone can say anything's good or bad. And so the truth is I can't look at your email and be like, that's gonna get worse results in mine. Just, that's why I showed you the
Amy:
lavender dashboard before we started. I'm like, well, like this is
Kellen:
not no. And, and I can make the assumption. I mean, I look at it and I go, it's like, not how I do it, but just what I mean by that is like, people can oftentimes be quick to say, like, that's wrong. This is. But also are we then following a pattern and could. Outdated email actually be a pattern interrupt to the current meta of how people are doing email. So basically I just wanna be careful about like, saying this is bad or, you know, this isn't the right way because it's just like, it's just a way. But if it's not getting the results, then that's all that
Amy:
probably, oh then it, it is absolutely bad because it's, our job is to get to 100% listeners. That is, that is what we do as ICS and as leaders. Okay. Ke this is amazing. All right. But let's dig into the big.
Kellen:
Yeah. So the long run, I'll just read it real quick. So it's, it's very similar. Um, Hey, name notice org's incredible track record with learning development on refu. Now, what I added here is, and that you're already believers in using podcast for communication. And so it's not just that you do it, but you believe in it. You have, I, and again, what I wanna do is attach to identity more than stuff like doing it is a thing. Belief is an identity and people protect their identity. So they'll act in accordance with them. Mm-hmm Ever consider an internal podcast to reinforce those strangely synchronous? Same question right now, a longer, uh, sort of explanation of it is by untethering where your employees engage with internal communications, no screen required. You allow them to learn in new ways like during walks or during workouts, or even doing their expenses. Reinforcing cognitive recognition. Now will Allred will hate me because this is nowhere near the reason's
Amy:
a big word. That's this doesn't feel like fifth grade reading level to
Kellen:
me. French yeah. Yeah, no. And I I'm known to do this, like my lavender it since is like Ellen, please stop writing. So complicated.
Amy:
It's I love that when it's like, excuse me. You're too complex. You've you've been writing it in eighth grade reading level. If you could go ahead and just dumb it down, that would be great. I love it. Yeah.
Kellen:
So, so they'll be mad at me. I still send 'em. They work. And so basically there, it's just learning the same idea, which is you can reach your people in new ways. It gives 'em some examples and it's like, this makes it better for their recognition of what you're already. With 60 plus shows launched in 45, under management was thinking org would be a great candidate to explore this strategy as part of an overall sales enablement program. Right. And so there we're actually flexing some of your background. And then also we're kind of making a suggestion. To me what's nice is people oftentimes pitch their product. Like, you know, Hey, like, do you wanna do this thing? I'm trying to more so align. Like I, I can tell you're investing in learning and development. You use podcasts. I'm sure you have some sort of like strategy around sales enablement, and like in between that there's all of this like undefined stuff. And I'm just trying to be like, can we talk about that? Right? Because again, the specificity of like, do you want to do an internal podcast? Like that's very low. Right. Very few people are walking around and you say that, oh my God. Yes. Right, but
Amy:
what's, I've been waiting for you to come up to me and ask me that exact
Kellen:
question. Yeah. And you're like, where's that list if it exist. so really it's, we're looking for, again, like my goal
Amy:
is to get the conversation. It's just to get the meeting. It's it's I I'm hearing you say this. And I am like, it's, I, I I've been up on that soapbox once or twice while coaching people. I tried to get at this in my version, as you can see, like even just downplaying them. What's the worst that could happen. Like you make a new friend.
Kellen:
I tell people that their, their best writing is probably, um, like reenacting their best speaking. Right. And so, like, I think you and I are both people who have very, like, we don't speak very buttoned up and clear and concise. And so our emails might be a little out there at times, but I think that that can be okay. As long as it feels like, is this a real person talking to me about things relevant to. Right. Like Andy Paul 1 0 1 or, is this someone trying to like, gotcha. No one wants to be gotcha. And that's what specificity also sometimes feels like, right? Like if someone like was selling outreach, do you, are you looking for ways to send cadences automated, blah, blah. It's like, no, like one, everyone knows about that two. They'd be looking for it, but three, when you ask that question, you're not really. Asking. You're really just hoping that they step on that landmine, which is like, yeah, I am looking, oh, here, we'll sell you this thing, you know, can I, I, I have to add
Amy:
something else. So something that your line in this, in the top one, actually in both of them sound like something you'd be open to a conversation about question mark. What I loved about this question is that it reminds me of, have you ever read, um, Phil Jones? Exactly what to say? I,
Kellen:
I haven't.
Amy:
Okay. So this is, uh, page two is the publisher that did Andy's new book. They sell without selling out, which hopefully he wins gold medal for that one. But, uh, um, this is also page two book. It's got like 2000 reviews on Amazon and it is. One of, I wasn't expecting it. And it was through the mastermind when Trina, who is the, the CEO of page two, she came in and did one of the events for one of our monthly events to just kind of talk about the publishing side of it. So she sent me a bunch of these books, this book ke I mean, you got it. You gotta read it. What do you know about blank? Yeah. As a question. And it goes through the, like the logic of why they're every single page on this, in this book is, is just a question like that and why they're bullet proof. Yes, yes. And so listeners required absolutely required reading exactly what to say. The magic words for influence and impact by Phil M Jones. It's literally within reach from my desk because I reference it so often. One of them though, killing is how open-minded are you? Question mark. And the logic, like in the book on the page, it's like, who like, think about, just think about asking someone this question or asking, I don't know, a hundred people, this question. Out of a hundred people. How many of them do you think would like to associate themselves as being open-minded. 100%. Yeah. And so I, it's not like exactly like this, but it has that flavor.
Kellen:
Yeah. Of, well, it's the identity thing. So for example, there's this study, it was like looking at littering. Right. Essentially they were studying the impact of either trying to tell people, not to litter by talking about the impact it has, like why it's bad or telling them not to litter by. Leveraging their identity and not being destructive. And so it sounds nuanced, but it basically like one would be like, Amy, it'd be like running a, um, a, like a marketing program in a city. Let's say about anti-littering it's like, don't litter. Like littering is bad. It ruins our city, like all these things. And those are like things, right. The other place goes I'm from Walnut Creek, right? Like, let's say it says like Walnut Creek are not liters Walnut. Keep Walnut Creek. That is actually attaching to my identity as a Walnut Creek resident. And they found that that's way more impactful. That question I love about like, how open-minded are you is perfect because it's people will protect their identity. How open-minded are you? And they're even if they are like, shit, if I say like, very, they're gonna be able to say X, Y, Z. But they're not gonna say I'm not because that would be a threat to their identity. So they'd rather take the route of allow you. Well, I guess I'm pretty open minded. What, you know, what are you, why? Right. And then boom. That's like your please ask next thing. Yeah,
Amy:
yeah, yeah. Wow. This is awesome. Ke, this is awesome. I'm totally gonna use these emails and I will absolutely be reporting back listeners on the, the uptick in response that that will undoubtedly come. And, you know, I guess there's only, there's only one way up from dear killing, like final words on this.
Kellen:
Yeah. Do lots of experimentation have lots of fun with it. Be a person like, I, I always think good, like litmus test is if I got this, would I like it? How would I feel? Look at the cold emails in your inbox? Like, how do they make you feel? What do they look like? I am very much so a proponent of how things make people feel is, is gonna be what drives the result. Again, business problems exist, but I'm not gonna assume that people care about their job stuff that much. I want to connect with human being. Give them warmth. And because if we connect that way, like if that other stuff exists, it's, it's inevitable it's gonna happen. Right. So it's like first I need to connect with the person because if I just seem like some drone trying to sell you, so. I'll never get that connection.
Amy:
All right. Ke you rock. Um, how could people find you?
Kellen:
Yeah, uh, LinkedIn, uh, ke case beer, like case of beer. Uh, that's really the best place. My, all my, all my contact details on there. So like, I love to hear from people, get creative with it. If you, if you happen to hit me up anytime I'll never be bothered by it.
Amy:
Awesome. All right, listeners, all of the documents button up, not well, like all two of them, my version. If you wanna laugh and then Kelly's version, maybe I'll even put them in the same document for when we, when we publish, but that'll all be in the show notes. Kelly, this was awesome. I I'm like as we're recording it, it's like already my favorite. Thank you for making time for us. I appreciate you so much more than you could possibly know right
Kellen:
now. Thank you. No, thank you. This is a blast. I had a great time and, uh, look forward to the next one
Amy:
that wraps in. Installment of the revenue real hotline. I'd like to thank my guest for being so damn real and for sharing their insights and for, of course being so much fun. And I'd like to thank you two, listen. It means the world. And I appreciate you. If you have any thoughts or comments or experiences, you feel inclined to share head straight over to revenue, rail.com. There's a new join. The conversation feature on the right side of the page. I am old damn ears. Final thought. We are introducing a coaching aspect to the show. So anyone who's brave enough to dig into an account strategy or outbound strategy session. That's where we kick things. Please do follow the show wherever you listen to your podcast. So you'll always have the latest episode downloaded. If you want to contact me, I'm at Amy revenue, rail.com. If you wanna follow me on social Twitter is Amy underscore UFF check, and LinkedIn is linkedin.com/amy UFF. Check. This episode was produced by the fabulous Neen Feedler rock, man. And I appreciate you too friend. And of course, whatever you do, don't tell anybody about the show. Let's keep it our little secret. Until next time, all I'm Amy hub check. This is the revenue real hotline, happy selling.
Check out the top Revenue Real Hotline episodes, by the numbers.
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
Castro
RSS Feed